All-In Recruitment is a podcast by Manatal focusing on all things related to the recruitment industry’s missions and trends. Join us in our weekly conversations with leaders in the recruitment space and learn their best practices to transform the way you hire.
Transcript
The transcript has been edited for clarity.
A warm welcome to Harry Antarakis
Lydia: Hi, Harry, nice to have you here. Thank you so much for taking your time off the busy schedule that you have here to share some of your hard-won wisdom.
So a very warm welcome to you, Harry, and we are very excited to have you on our podcast.
Harry: Lydia, I'm very happy you invited me. It's very exciting to speak to somebody from Asia.
Lydia: You have been in Asia, and we will cover that briefly. So just on that point, let's talk a little bit about your background, which is extensive.
You've had over two decades across multiple countries in many roles. So, you were born in Greece, and then you started your career in Belgium before moving on to Asia and probably other countries. But in Asia, you've spent a vast amount of time in Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, and then Myanmar.
You are also a business leader and entrepreneur with experience across multiple fields and verticals. You've been in project management, business solutions, marketing, and recruitment now. Today, you run two companies as CEO and also COO.
So, perhaps you could take us through that journey, Harry, what inspired you to take one step to the next, and maybe tell us a little bit about what you do today.
Harry: I come from a tiny place in Greece. It is primarily rustic. It has 160,000 people and 2.3 million tourists at any given time. But for me, I didn't have anything to do with tourism. I didn't own a hotel, and my parents told me that what I should do was study. I went to the UK to study and returned to Greece after completing a master’s degree.
I realized I couldn’t practice my skills, so I moved to Belgium, where I stayed for six years. I worked for large corporations, namely Sony Europe, my last company there and where I worked for about four years.
Before Belgium had start-ups, it was mostly standard organizations. Belgium was very big on these kinds of companies. I worked in the digital field from the very beginning. I’m talking about ancient times, back in ‘99. This was a new thing that nobody wanted to do.
Lydia: At the cusp of turning digital. It's a very important period in time.
Harry: Yes. It was boring for experienced executives but very exciting for the newer generations. Eventually, I settled down there, where I married and have two kids.
After six years, I moved back to Greece. It wasn’t a career move but more of a family move. However, I worked in different companies in Greece, too. I was employed by a company which works in marketplaces. It’s now a very big company, but back then, it was not known in Greece. I was employee number one of the company, and today, the company is called Adevinta. Just to give you an idea, they bought eBay Classifieds for 8.6bil US dollars about a year ago.
Lydia: You were employee number one, Harry?
Harry: I was employee number one for just the Greek operations, not the company’s whole operations. When they opened in Greece, I was employed there in digital marketplaces and stayed with them in Greece for two and a half years.
When the crisis hit Greece, I moved to their other place of operations which was in Singapore. They had a joint venture with Singapore press holdings.
The operations were located in the hub of Singapore, where we had connections to big marketplaces such as Mudah in Malaysia, for example.
So, I worked with them for three and a half years in Asia. After that, I moved to Malaysia as my base. When I was in a startup, I was responsible for handling marketing for a very interesting company. This came to be because there was a need for it and changes in the movement of the markets. The economy basically forced me to move around. I couldn’t stay in one place because of the economy, as I was following the flow of the economy from Europe then to Asia. I was also moving from bigger companies to startups and then back to a bigger company.
I was CMO in Malaysia for two companies. Then after that, I worked in fintech in Malaysia as well. I became the CEO of a company in Myanmar called MyJobs which works in the field of recruitment.
I’m still the CEO of this company. They belong to a big media group in Switzerland called Ringier. It is a family business that has been around for about 184 years. It’s a small family business where half the company focuses on media and the other half on marketplaces. They have 130 brands, with marketplaces also being a part of these 130 brands. They operate in Europe, Asia, and Africa.
Due to COVID and after the military coup in Myanmar, my head of command told me it’s better to stay in Greece and do remote work. They then asked me if I could help in Africa. So, I worked in Ghana last year and in Kenya for a short time in a company there. Now, I’m the number two for African operations as a CEO for recruitment.
So, once again, I worked in recruitment in Myanmar and recruitment in Africa, all under one big company. I’ve had to travel, and there’s also remote work. At the moment, I’m in Kenya.
The future of MyJobs: where is it heading?
Lydia: It's very current, and experiences have been very forward. In fact, starting from 1999, moving to digital and, and across different continents even so the multicultural work environment will be very familiar to you.
You're speaking to us from Kenya, right? So MyJobs Myanmar, and you're also COO of the African talent company, which you say are both under the same parent company from Switzerland.
So, what might be the main business focus for both MyJobs Myanmar and the African talent company? Where is it headed right now?
Harry: MyJobs has three parts. People can see on the online platform that businesses can post jobs, and people can go and apply for the jobs directly. It’s a self-service system, but we also have executive recruitment.
The third part is outsourcing. What we do is that we look after the payroll and try to make sure that stuff is done in time. We carry out all the integration procurements we want. Usually, companies such as call centers or banks have the same kinds of operations we have. We also have people looking after African wildlife, so we outsource this.
Recruitment across the globe: the similarities and the differences
Lydia: So, there are two types of basically two continents. One is in Asia and the other in Africa.
What might be the interesting insights you have for executive recruitment? For instance, you’ve seen both sides; what might be the differences or similarities?
Harry: For example, in Myanmar, times have changed since the last regime of last year. There were a lot of SEO experts going around Myanmar. I found people working and managing hotels from Malaysia in Myanmar. I found experts looking after companies that produce daily products in Myanmar. We have a mix of both Asia and Europe for this part.
In Africa, there are also similar situations where you have local experts moving to different countries. You also have people coming from Europe for that. Maybe you can see the bigger picture because it’s not your Indian experts in both cases. It’s a big country where people try to find jobs in different places.
The way people react is not very different, but for tech, it is more difficult trying to find people. Negotiation becomes more difficult. You will need between three to six months for high-level positions. If you fall short for more minor positions, even people with maybe six or seven years of experience will require a couple of months.
It’s not very different. I won’t say it depends on the interest of the country. For example, in Myanmar, there was not much interest in Tech; it was more about producing clothing and natural resources and everything.
But in Africa, there’s a lot of digital money going into tech companies. The first place where this money was spoken about was Africa. You could see how people with old phones were making calls to send money and money going around.
It’s similar, and it’s not very different.
What is classified as being the 100 best places to work in Myanmar?
Lydia: That's interesting. It is, after all, the cross-boundary world we're living in.
So, a couple of years ago, MyJobs, released an interesting report. I looked at it, and I found it quite insightful. It's called the 100 great places to work in Myanmar. So, what inspired this report? What have been some of the key findings you could share?
Harry: I wanted to have a point of reference for companies that relate to, not how much time they spend with us, but more on what your employees say. Usually, you can receive a nice reward if you sponsor an event. It happens very often, and it’s no secret. You give some money, and you get a reward.
But in our case, what we did was we became more democratic. We opened up the system and asked people from companies to vote for their own companies. We check things like their email addresses and more. If you use social media like Facebook, Instagram, and Whatsapp, then we check that. We use Viber, and Whatsapp is very popular in Myanmar.
We realized that some of the big brands are quite well respected. Some telecoms were very well respected because they have a lot of resources for looking after their staff. In some companies, they cooperate well. This is mostly in international companies that import best practices.
It’s no secret that Myanmar is a young country in terms of doing business. When you have a company that comes from Europe or Malaysia or Singapore, or the U.S. doing business there, they will try to import how they treat their staff, how they evaluate their staff, and how they pay their staff.
The findings were from there. Maybe it’s a different story if you do it like in Europe. So, back in Europe, small startups will have better rates than big ones because it is a different system.
Does happier employees mean higher retention rates?
Lydia: That’s actually a really interesting point because talent retention is a big challenge. You want to give the best experience to those who are working in your company, especially now when we see mass resignation, so many people are leaving their jobs, and we've been seeing this in the past few years.
So, in terms of employee retention, from some of the insights you may have gained, what might be the best practices or strategies to ensure that people are staying in their roles within the company and are happy in the company?
Harry: The big issue was who your boss is. What does that mean? If your boss is good, then what is a good boss?
“A good boss is a person who respects you professionally and is a person who will be transparent with you.”
For example, the boss will say that I can only pay you so much, and people respect this kind of thing. So it doesn’t really matter who pays you the most.
The important factor was basically how managers treat their staff. It’s about respect, salaries, the working environment, and whether they understand personal situations. For example, if a lady has a baby and she has to go home early, then people shouldn’t complain or if someone gets into an accident.
For example, in Myanmar, when there is a big event such as a death in the family or a wedding where there are thousands of people in attendance, then it is very important to respect people’s personal obligations and allow them to do this without too much fuss. Then those people will give loyalty back and help you. When managers look at a long-term perspective with the staff, then it works, and people will stay in the company.
It was basically more about how I would look after my working environment so my boss would have space to work. Do they respect my rights? Also, salary is very important, but it is more or less a combination of these things.
Managing a post-pandemic working team and work environment
Lydia: These factors are so important today, and even in the past two years, because you’ve got mass resignations happening. The second is that there’s a pandemic involved, and more and more people are working remotely. It’s been very challenging, especially for companies that were unprepared for remote work or hybrid work.
So, in terms of navigating these challenges and also related to talent retention, what might be some of your experience navigating the pandemic professionally, managing a team, and ensuring that there is a cohesive work environment?
Harry: As I said, MyJobs comes from a Swiss Background. How we used to handle things in Switzerland was a very different working environment from any other place in the world. They said they wanted to go hybrid and do these things, so we tried to get these policies on the ground.
I used to sit with the staff and say to them, “Guys, listen, we can’t keep more than 30% or 40% of the staff at any time. Are you okay with that?” and I will consult with staff and try to see which functions need to stay or go, or who can work from outside.
So, for example, the sales team is usually in the office, but they can be in their houses and get customers because their jobs are specific. For IT, maybe office units that are in accounting or finance need a quiet place because the information is confidential. This is also the same for HR.
For me, it was about seeing what the best practices from the mother company are, and the mother company never called us to say that you have to do this. They told us that these were their practices and asked us, “what do you think?” At the same time, this was transmitted to staff, and I had to ask, “Guys, what do you think?” The priority was the health and security of the staff as well as the results of the company.
If I had put the company's resources first but no staff to deliver it, then I can’t do it. So, it has to be a combination of both and realistic. I think that the people I work with in Myanmar, eight out of 10, were quite pragmatic. You just need to talk to people. It’s about communication.
Lydia: It's about communication, and also effective communication, making sure that even though people are away that you're still communicating these policies and differences and making decisions based on their circumstances as well.
Harry: I was very lucky that the last head of HR I had was really proactive and came to me and said, “Harry, we should have a town hall. We should have updates with staff; we should, you know, have a word with the staff.”
What I did was I tried to create an environment where people could speak up and basically practice what they think is right. People are not stupid, they’re very smart, but sometimes they’re afraid to talk.
“If you allow people to talk and consult with them, you will be able to build up your team.”
That was very important. That’s teamwork. Of course, nobody has all the experience and everything. That’s why sometimes I ask a specialist for something. It’s interactive work.
Suppose I see a gap, for example. In that case, If I want to build up the project manager to a certain level so that we can work with the team we have in South Africa or when we have to work in Zurich. I know that this person doesn’t have the necessary training yet, then I will try to handhold for a bit in the beginning as they go through the process.
Normally, people are positive, so you have to show by example, and then they will take over. Leading by example is very important because you must practice what you preach.
Lydia: I completely agree with that, especially when you have more and more people moving upwards into managerial positions or supervisory roles that require them to lead others.
In the face of the pandemic, I think this is absolutely crucial. So, I totally agree. Then also there's also the challenge of using more and more tech tools. And this also requires a lot of what you call savviness in terms of how fast you can pick things up.
Tech Recruitment: the challenges and how to tackle them
Lydia: So on that note, if we could just move into the recruitment space right now and look at Tech recruitment because many companies in the face of the pandemic have had to digitize, and they've had to become data-driven tech companies, basically. So, what would you say in terms of recruitment might be the top three challenges facing tech recruitment today, those who you know, when you have to hire a cybersecurity expert, which is very scarce right now.
So what might be the top three challenges that face tech recruitment today? And how might a recruiter be able to tackle them?
Harry: The first thing like you said is that this is scarce, which shows that you have to move them from a place where they already have a job. I think that the employment rate for them is close to zero, maybe 2 or 3%.
First of all, they’re scarce, so you have to find them. Secondly, as a recruiter, you have to be able to understand what it is you’re asking them.
I’ve been through with recruiters either headhunting me or I’ve headhunted others. They try to headhunt for high positions, and they don’t know what it is, so they’re confusing things.
As a recruiter, you have to know the subject that you’re going to speak to them about. You cannot talk to cybersecurity experts and ask them, “Do you know how to use PowerPoint?” The person will start laughing. Instead, all you have to ask is, “Do you have enough experience with digital tools?” It’s their bread and butter; it’s what they do.
You have to find them as they’re scarce, and you have to know what they’re asking for.
“The last part is whether you can provide them a company that they want to work for. When you try to find them, they will not ask about the money, but they will ask about location and if they can work remotely or hybrid. They will also ask if they’re going to grow in the company and what their future is.”
So, for example, in the past, I worked with a Norwegian company. We had cybersecurity experts. These guys are like what you see in the movies. They’re like gurus with a beard. So, these people, if you want to throw them in the company, either have them work for a start-up in something they are really passionate about, or you have to give them more freedom to work. You have to create this kind of environment where they are willing to come in and not just for the money because they will find it.
So again, it's scarce, and you have to know what they’re asking for and create an environment they’re willing to work in.
Recruitment technologies: the impacts on recruitment
Lydia: That's actually really interesting because to be fast enough to understand what the current trends are and to be able to understand what to ask and what space you're playing in, as a recruiter, you should be able to be on top of your game and also, sometimes this involves usage of automation tools for recruitment.
So, what kind of impact do you think in terms of these challenges? What impact do you think these recruitment technologies and tools can have on recruitment overall?
Harry: It’s already being done in many places. I’ll give you an example. A few years ago, they started recruiting through Whatsapp by asking three or four questions. I think someone in Australia was going it.
You need to detect these things fast and have a certain basic level of understanding. One is you need to have technical skills. Another thing is you have to have the teamwork skills they need. It depends on the job. You might need to be more communicative or have more or less empathy. Also, you need to see if they’re willing to move.
I think it’s easier now because you have online tests. For example, in Africa, Europe, and Asia, we will use online questionnaires to check their level. What their of English level is? What is your skill in Java? So these kinds of testing can be carried out.
You can also go for interviews, online or offline. Sometimes you will come across a company asking you to record a video of yourself. If I’m looking for someone to add to my team, and this person can’t speak or can’t smile or doesn’t have a good CV or isn’t communicative, then you can just say the word.
Everybody has to be communicative, but not everybody’s an extrovert. But, they should at least have basic skills.
Synchronous testing and synchronous interviewing are both very important. You can then move to live interviews, either through the phone or video, and have a small chat. You can also go for a physical interview because people do move around different countries and cities before COVID times. Sometimes they move to the same building or the same town. But during COVID, you have to do all this remotely.
“These kinds of technology can help, but you also have to know that this will not decide for you. You have to make the decision. These are just tools, and you can’t just choose this person because they didn’t smile in their first interview. You have to make sure that there is something wrong. You have to put in the effort.”
Lydia: There's also the usage of Artificial Intelligence today, and the use of more advanced tools for the recruiter to be able to streamline their hiring processes, because in the recruitment space with plenty of different tasks to be done, etc.
So, in terms of productivity and in terms of high impact on results-driven recruitment strategies, how might some of these technologies be useful?
Harry: I’ll give you an extreme example. We have a company in Switzerland, and as you know, it’s not a very big country, there are about 3 million people that are quite important to the business. Most of the high-level talents are concentrated in banks and finance. Most tech companies that are out there, such as Google, have big offices. We have a company handling recruitment, and it’s very competitive there because the unemployment rate in Switzerland is about 4%. Trying to find good talent in this environment is very tough.
When you tell them you’re looking for an IT expert, we have a team that the information goes through our database using the software. What the software does is, it matches the candidate based on multiple parameters and tries to find you the right match. You can go through this matching which is basically like machine learning. They will give you specific parameters that they think are correct. However, the system can make mistakes, so you need to validate it, and doing so will improve the system.
The validation comes from seeing whether this person is a right fit for the job or not after you speak to them and based on what the machine has found for you.
We have a company in Switzerland that has been doing this for two and a half years. But, many recruitment companies will do this in the background.
“When someone uploads a CV to the system, and they are not contacted back it is because the CV doesn’t have the right keywords.”
Some things are smart at detecting, some are not, so you must go through it again. Machine learning is happening as we speak across all big websites and companies.
If you apply for a job thinking that you are the right fit for it, that would be a mistake. You need to apply for multiple jobs where you feel you fit by seventy to a hundred percent. While machines are calculating statistics, you should be calculating your own.
My advice would be don’t be an option, but know that you have to have more options. Improve your use of technology for your benefit, don’t just wait for someone to tell you that you’re the right fit.
Lydia: It's great to know that the technologies and the recruiter as well play a very important role in ensuring that the right hire is made.
Plus, you've got the technology to supplement the kind of tasks that a recruiter would have to add that they get an increase or amplify the type of hire they make, and they were able to deliver the results for them.
Candidate care: how you can ensure this
Lydia: So, that is how much of the use of technology, in fact, even cascades for the candidate experience.
So, the candidate's experience in many ways is enhanced because they know the outcome of the application much earlier because of these technological tools and all these solutions for the recruiter.
So, in your experience, what might be ways we can ensure candidate care throughout the recruitment process?
Harry: It’s something that has continually evolved, and it has two parts. One is the mechanical part, and the other is the human part.
For example, if you apply for a job somewhere, you might think that a response will be given in five days, and that’s always good to know. I’ll use a fancy expression here. It’s like the user journey. A user’s journey is basically the interaction you have with someone. What are the touch points?
“If you know the process from when you go to the website to when you apply and speak to your recruiter, these are touch points.”
You need to have a reaction that keeps them hot and happy. If you don’t find a job right now, they might still come back after three months or even four months.
Regardless of the results, you have to be nice to people. In this case, you have some touch points. People usually go through these products and understand the digital and physical flows of interacting with users.
If it’s offline marketing and offline recruitment, they will probably tell you they will call after three weeks, or they might even send an email after five weeks. But, automation can speed up the process because you can work on a big scale. When someone comes to your website, you can identify this person, and if you are interested, you can assemble support.
The second is that during the process of applying for a job and waiting for a response, if something happens, then you should alert them. You should let them know that their profile has been checked and that they will receive some feedback in the coming week.
These kinds of checks are very important. When they go through the interview, and there is human involvement, or before speaking to them, there has to be a certain way in which you speak to them. Especially if things are done a certain way, then you need to follow up and tell them that you will come back to them in two weeks.
"Whatever happens, you have to remember that you as a recruiter are a conduit between the supply and the demand, so you have to keep them both hot.”
It’s a handshake between art and technology. It’s not only technology that separates the good from the bad, but it is more like an art form, because recruitment has been around forever. Some comments are not golden because humans have to try to understand the tools as the tools will not carry out the job alone.
Lydia: Absolutely.
The candidate is, after all, this person who requires this kind of interaction and constant communication in a timely manner so they can have a better experience and have taken the time to apply.
With recruitment technology, you can quickly give them an outcome and keep them in the loop. As you were saying, keeping them warm and keeping them hot is definitely key.
Starting out in recruitment: what you should know
Lydia: You've had a vast experience in recruitment. I've really enjoyed what you've shared today on the things you've seen personally in the recruitment space.
So what advice would you give to someone starting in recruitment today?
Harry: First, you have to be able to decide if this fits you or not. For example, do you have empathy? Do you understand the person you’re speaking to? The second will be; do you know technology? Because you will use communication tools. You’ll use systems to find information, and again you need to know how to communicate with this system.
So you must have empathy and the willingness to help people find jobs. Do you want to help people to find jobs or not? If you want to, then that’s great. Don’t just go for the money.
“You must be passionate about helping them because the moment you do that, you will realize you get happiness.”
You have to have the willingness to work, and you also have to be capable of understanding technology.
The fourth thing would be that you should try to see the trends in your area. To specialize in FinTech recruitment, you must ask yourself if you know the trends.
So you have the empathy, you have the willingness, and you are also capable of understanding technology. Try to see the trends in your sector. For example, the city you're in or the country you're in. If you specialize in FinTech recruitment, then do you know the trends?
If you specialize in agriculture, do you know what it means? You have to be alert about every job. You basically have to know your subject and like it. You need the skills to work.
It’s very generic, and it’s for everybody, but you also have to make sure that recruitment is the right fit for you.
Lydia: These are great tips because the recruitment space is really undergoing an evolution in itself because you've got so many channels to go through, lots of technologies, and many ways to recruit, especially today.
So it's really wonderful to have you share that with us, Harry. I think we can go on talking about this for a long time.
Thank you very much for your time today, and it's been such a great pleasure having you on this show.
I'm sure the audience wants to know more about you and MyJobs in Myanmar, as well as your Talent Company.
Where can they find you online?
Harry: Basically, I'm not big on Facebook. I just use Whatsapp. I'm also on LinkedIn. It's very easy. If you put in my family name and my first name, you'll see my picture.
LinkedIn is very good. It can be a competitor for me. But, it's a good place. I found jobs through that channel.
Find me on LinkedIn if you like. Google me, put my name, and something will come up.
Lydia: Is there anyway else we can find you? Maybe your own Youtube channel or maybe the company’s as well?
Harry: The company in MyJobs basically if you contact it to look for me, they will connect with me.
So, if you ask for me or miss my name, say the Greek guy. I'm the only Greek guy in the company.
It's very easy to find me, Harry Antarakis.
Lydia: Thank you so much.
We have been talking to Harry Antarakis who is the CEO at MyJobs Myanmar and COO at the African Talent Company.
So, do look out for future podcasts from All-In Recruitment, and stay tuned for our next episodes.
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